E137: Impact Evaluation for Nonprofits with Shenae Samuels

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In this episode, I share an interview with Shenae Samuels, PhD, MPH with Map Data Studio. We met in Fort Lauderdale at a Social Impact event where I shared my experiences working with nonprofits, and we connected over our passion for helping nonprofits and using statistical analysis.

She discusses her transition from an academic research career to helping nonprofits maximize their community impact. She introduces her MAP framework:

  • Mission – Determine outcome metrics
  • Action – Plan to transition from output to outcomes (GPS for data infrastructure and strategy)
  • Proof – Report outcome metrics

MAP translates rigorous scientific methods into practical data-driven strategies for mission-driven teams, which aligns closely with my Six Sigma background.

She also emphasizes that moving beyond simple testimonials to quantifiable outcome measurement is essential for securing grants and ensuring health equity in marginalized communities. She explains how disaggregating data allows organizations to identify specific barriers, such as food insecurity or transportation issues, that hinder program success. She highlights that collaborating with data experts enables nonprofit leaders to focus on service delivery while maintaining the robust evaluation systems required for long-term funding and social change.

01:33 From University of Florida (UF) to Public Health
03:18 Leaving Academia for Nonprofits
04:54 Personal Why Health Equity
07:58 Career Path Before Consulting
11:05 COVID Dashboard and Nonprofit Return
12:30 Impact Measurement Basics
14:05 MAP Framework Explained
17:15 Proving Outcomes Over Outputs
21:44 Healthcare Data and Collaboration
26:03 Making Stats Practical
27:54 Learning Through Real Projects
34:46 Nonprofit Data Support
40:07 Equity Driven Evaluation
47:00 Building Trust With Communities
50:27 Contact And Starter Kit

Listen to the podcast on this page, download it on your favorite podcast player (search “Lean Six Sigma for Good”) or watch the entire interview at https://youtu.be/9uz5NKRtFXQ

Links

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Promotions

Have you ordered the book, “Lean Six Sigma for Good: Lessons from the Gemba (Volume 2)?” The book is made up of 8 chapters written about experiences from Lean and Six Sigma practitioners, to give you tips and tricks to help you work with nonprofits in your area. All proceeds donated to charity. Now available in audiobook as of Feb 2024. You can also order Volume 1 released in 2019.

Transcript
Note: may contain typos and errors, generated with AI

Brion

Welcome everyone. So today on the podcast, I’ve got a special guest, Shanae Samuels. She has a master’s in public health and she’s a PhD. And we met at a social impact event here in Fort Lauderdale area. The Chamber of Commerce put on an event that I presented at and talked about lean and nonprofit work and you and your husband came and talked to me afterwards. So it was great meeting you and we just went through a volunteer event and I thought this would be a great opportunity to have you come on the podcast and share with everyone all the stuff you’ve been working on and all your experience. So welcome.

Shenae Samuels

Thank you so much for having me, Brion. It’s a pleasure to be here today. I’m so glad that we’re connected and we’re continuing to collaborate. As Brion said, I’m Dr. Shanae Samuels, and I’m the founder and principal consultant of MAP Data Studio. And we work with nonprofits or mission-driven teams to help them make better data-driven decisions, as well as to help them define, measure, and communicate their community impact.

Brion

That’s great. Talk to me a little bit about how you got into the space. So what were you interested in school and what did you study? And yeah, just walk us through some of your early education.

Shenae

Yeah, sure. So my background is actually in health services research. And I would say that my love for working with nonprofits really started back at the University of Florida where I did all my degrees. Forever a gator. So I did my undergrad in health education and behavior, and that’s really where the story began. Doing a health education and behavior program means that you’re working a lot with grassroots organizations. The groups are doing underground work of expanding healthcare access, preventing chronic disease, and basically advancing health equity. So I always had a love for that, and that’s what led me to get my master of public health. And then eventually I went on to get my PhD in health services research. And the goal really was to use research to advance health equity, as well as to essentially ensure that all communities can have a healthier life, a longer lifespan. And I spent much of my I would say career working in very academically focused research. So I was a research scientist for seven plus years. I worked with Memorial Healthcare System and then eventually went on to work with Duke University focused on cancer health disparities. And then I also have an academic background. So I worked at Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center as an assistant professor. Two days after I graduated, I moved to Lubbock, Texas and started that position. So I spent a lot of time doing data analysis as a research scientist, as a professor within institutions. But I often felt like the work was important and I enjoyed it, but I felt far removed from my original what sparked me to get into public health, which is working with nonprofits, grassroots organizations. So yeah, I was reflecting on my why, like why did I get into public health? And I realized that I was far removed and I realized that I had the skills that nonprofits actually need, right? The skills that they need to do impact measurement, to do program evaluation, but they often don’t have someone on staff. So that’s what landed me into developing Map Data Studio and Yeah, it’s been a transition, of course, from leaving your research career and diving into entrepreneurship. But I know that my data expertise is truly what organizations need, especially when it comes to measuring their impact, measuring, evaluating their programs, as well as getting more funding because it’s very much tied to your ability to have evaluation structures in place and being able to evaluate your program. So yeah, so that’s what led me to develop Map Data Studio.

Brion

Yeah, and I do want to get into the impact work that you’re doing and have you explain that. But was there something in particular that drew into the health? Is there a problem that you noticed or what, yeah, what was the issue that really got you to realize there’s this disparity going on or do you remember Anything specific or is just through research that you came across some of these issues?

Shenae

Oh, I remember specifically. It’s both, it’s very personal to me and I don’t mind sharing. So I think from a very young age, I was very cognizant of the fact that access to healthcare was so important, right? So I’m originally from Jamaica. My parents from a very young age had health issues that they were facing. And in particular, my dad had leukemia and when he got diagnosed, the treatment was very expensive. And combined with quality of care issues, Jamaica does the best with the resources that they have and they often do a phenomenal job. But the reality is that they don’t have the resources that we have in places like the US and Canada. So fortunately for my dad, he had an option of, he’s a Canadian citizen as well, so he was able to go to Canada and get his treatment there. He actually enrolled in a clinical trial and I think that’s what sparked my interest in research. Cause I was like, oh, there’s patients who have another option outside of traditional, you know, standard of care. Of course, at the time I was like seven. This is me looking back and realizing. So yeah, so I’d say that in combination with my mom, she’s had, she has two autoimmune conditions from a very young age access for her was also very important. And then I had an aunt who had fallen ill and unfortunately couldn’t get the care that she needed and ended up passing away at a pretty young age. So I believe all of that combined and then doing my health education and behavior degree, I was like, this is where I feel like I would want to be because I want to see communities and families live healthier lives and have proper access to care. So it started at a really young age and I think right around high school when I reflected back on my personal experiences or experiences with my family members, I was like, healthcare is where I want to be because I want to make sure that families have adequate access to care and they’re able to get better and there’s a less likelihood of premature death. It has been challenging, of course. I will not ignore that, but I think it definitely was what was needed to direct me to my purpose.

Brion

That’s very cool. Let’s see here. I don’t know if you want to go more into the jobs, but I think maybe go into the impact reporting and management. Okay. Do that next, or do you want to cover anything more on the jobs side of it, the work you did?

Shenae

I forgot that you’re going to edit.

Brion

This informal. I think I drink coffee.

Shenae

Oh yeah, true. Because I cannot function. I think we can go into, we can touch a little bit more on the jobs. I feel like there is.

Brion

Maybe like the, yeah, maybe some of the work that led you that maybe now you’re yeah, I’ll, I guess I’ll just open it up and you can decide how much detail to go into there.

Shenae

Okay.

Brion

Okay. So after school, you end up in Lubbock, Texas. Can you talk a little bit more about some of the work you did before you got into the consulting space?

Shenae

Yeah, sure. So yeah, two days after graduation, I found myself in Lubbock, Texas. So I was actually in their healthcare management department and I was also a program director. newly minted PhD and I not only had, I was not only an assistant professor, but then I also had an administrative role, which was actually really good experience. I enjoyed it. That department was not heavily focused on research at the time, but we did do a couple research focused on healthcare management, of course, and a little mixture of public health as well. I eventually decided to leave that department for several reasons. I wanted to be closer to family. So I came back to South Florida and I moved on to Memorial Healthcare System and I was there for at least six years, if not more, because I’m thinking, yeah, at least six years, let’s say at least six years. And within that capacity, I worked a lot with various clinicians. That was actually a great job in a sense where I got to use my data analytics skills every day and with various projects. We’re talking about oncology work, pediatric surgery, primary care of course, a little bit of public health. A lot of it was patient outcomes focused, which I think aligns well with impact measurement, right? We’re looking at outcomes, but more so on a community level versus like a patient population. But that was a job that I honestly enjoyed. I love digging into data. That’s probably the curious side of me. I’ve always been curious, even growing up, like my parents said, I asked 10 million questions and that definitely shined. That was something that I, that you could tell within my research scientist career. I always had questions. I love digging into data, as I said. But yeah, that was a very enjoyable job. I eventually left and went to Duke University where I got to focus more on the cancer side of research because that is something that’s near and dear to me, obviously, given my dad’s diagnosis. So I got to work on cancer disparities research, which was also great. But over the years, 7 plus years of being a research scientist, I have just developed incredible analytical skills. And again, it’s just this feeling that I have peer reviewed, I have over 50 peer reviewed publications based on my years as a research scientist and collaborating with colleagues and it’s all valuable research. And I I want to emphasize that because I really did enjoy everything. And I think that the research I did was valuable and it helped to move medicine forward in its own capacity, but I still just felt removed from working with grassroots organization. I did some work with the Florida Health Justice Project here in South Florida. And I think that kind of reignited the thought of maybe I want to go back and work with nonprofits and help them. My time with Florida Health Justice Project was focused a lot on COVID disparities. We know that disparities, healthcare disparities is a longstanding issue. But the silver lining, if you want to call that with COVID was that it was brought to the forefront and there were more initiatives to narrow that gap. And I helped the Florida Health Justice Project with developing a dashboard that would highlight the disparities that we were seeing throughout Florida when it in relation to COVID-19. I did work with that and honestly that reignited my love for working with nonprofits. After years of working within institutions, I was like, let’s use my analytical skills that I’ve definitely sharpened by working in various capacities. And I decided to bring that skills into impact measurement for nonprofits. And I say impact measurement, but truly it’s, it goes beyond that. It’s also using data to drive decisions, right?

Brion

That’s how we connected and hit it off. Yeah, the focus on data and statistics. And yeah, so I’ll have you walk through impact measurement in that work. But was that something you had to learn separate, or was that just something you’ve gotten involved with, I don’t, I know a couple other colleagues that do this kind of work too, and I didn’t know if that’s a separate program people go through, like a Six Sigma program, or is it just that the space is looking to see how do I help these organizations report better on what they’re doing and yeah, what’s the structure around this kind of program? And then how do you get more into that if that’s a separate thing or is it just part of the work you’ve already done and it’s just gravitating to this?

Shenae

Yeah, so it’s definitely a part of the work that I’ve already done. Actually, during my time as a research scientist, I have helped with grant proposals, for instance, where I help them to develop their evaluation plan and looking at the metrics that would align with their objectives and their aim and what the funder would ideally want. So it’s work that I’ve done. It’s not work that I got to do a lot of during my role as a research scientist but it was work that I thoroughly enjoyed. Hence the shift back to impact measurement. And then also during my PhD, we we did a lot of work surrounding program evaluation as well. We touched on it a little bit during my bachelor’s, but I really got into some of that aspect during my PhD. So it’s work that I’ve already done and it’s very transferable, like actually the MAP framework. So the reason why the company is called MAP Data Studio is because it’s based on a MAP framework that I developed. And essentially the MAP framework stands for mission action proof, right? And the reason I developed that MAP framework is because with research, so when you’re doing scientific, the scientific process, generally you start with a research question, right? And all your data points that you collect is anchored or tied back to that research question. So within MAP, mission is basically equivalent to your research question, right? So it should answer what you’re trying to change for what population. And that means that when you have your mission, your action knowledge is equivalent to a data collection protocol in research. would guide the types of data or metrics that you collect to ensure that data is aligned with your mission. And again, that we’re looking at outcomes and not like outputs only, right? Outputs are still important, but also to ensure that you’re looking at outcomes. So you’re looking at what actually changed for a population. So for instance, if you’re working with a community and you’re working with, let’s say you’re working with patients with type two diabetes, You may have outputs that are like we held workshops and we looked at, we engage them in healthy lifestyle cooking classes. That’s great, but also we need to look at the outcomes. So like, do they have controlled A1C levels if you’re providing lab testing as a part of your program? So yeah, so Action is focused on ensuring that the data that you’re collecting is actually aligned with your mission. So similar to what you would do in a scientific process. And then proof is of course your findings and your impact and communicating your impact, which I guess you can say is similar to publishing in research, right? So MAP, the MAP framework is borrowed from the scientific process because program evaluation is very closely aligned.

Brion

That’s great. Cause I run across that as well. People will say, I, we organized this workspace. We put in standardized documentation. We did all these actions and that’s great. And those are all good principles and we put up better signage and labels and, and people are enjoying this and they say it’s better. But at the end of the day, it’s like, how do we prove that? We can do some surveys and stuff like that, but where’s the real impact to the organization? Are you getting more things done? Are you able to accomplish more? Is the output better? How do we put some numbers to it? Because that’s a little bit more objective and using statistical thinking and principles to say, is that real differences or is it noise? How do we separate that out? So yeah, I think there’s a lot of focus on getting actions done, but ultimately to make it real, we have to see the results.

Shenae

Correct. Yeah. And I think even just framing proof around percentage of whatever your outcome is. So going back to the mission, if you’re working with a population or a community of individuals who have type 2 diabetes, let’s say your outcome is to improve A1C. So you ultimately want your population to have controlled A1C levels. So using that always to anchor your outcome and saying what percentage of the people that I am serving or who are in my program actually have controlled A1C. But also I think what’s important too, which I think a lot of nonprofits sometimes miss a mark on is looking at timeframes, right? So not only just looking at one time, but Having a baseline, of course, to compare it to. But then after 30 days in my program, what does that look like? Is that percentage going up or is it going down? If it’s going up, then yay, we’re improving lives, right? After 60 days, what does that look like after 90s? It’s very much similar to research. I think the difference here or what I believe is the difference is that with research, obviously the goal is to publish, to move evidence forward. And you can do the same with your community programs, of course, because that does help other individuals or organizations who are developing similar programs. But the focus truly is on ensuring that the programs that you’re the programs that you have in place are actually making a difference. And like you said, having a quantifiable measure versus testimonials, which is great. Testimonials are always great, but I think when you pair testimonials with something that’s quantifiable and you’re able to say, one person that I spoke with in my program said that their A1C is now controlled and they’re healthier, they feel great. But then when you pair that with, not only did that person experience controlled A1C from our program, but now. 75% of our participants have had controlled A1C and that’s up from, I don’t know, let’s say 40 something percent within 90 days. So I think the two can definitely, the two should be, should be provided because I think testimonials are great as well. It gives the why behind the statistics or a bit of a human touch as well. But I think oftentimes because Nonprofits are focused on delivering programs, saving lives. It’s easier to just grab some testimonials versus digging into the data and making sure that they’re actually measuring outcomes.

Brion

Yeah, and getting the baseline and gathering all that information and establishing a current state of how things are going and where they’re at. That’s a lot of work. And that’s why when I go through training and teach people, we spend a lot of time on that because this is what you’re going to compare when you’re done. And if you’re not real concise and clear about where you’re at, it’s going to be hard for us to go back later and compare and show that there’s an improvement or difference there. And it’s a struggle even for organizations that I would think are much more mature than a lot of the nonprofits in terms of data collection and monitoring and tracking. It’s still a challenge for them who That should be something they’ve been doing for decades. And so it’s not new and it’s tough. So it’s not surprising that is a challenge for a lot of these organizations that doesn’t have that same emphasis and rigidity of data collection and tracking and reporting and a lot of opportunity there.

Shenae

Was something I was going to touch on as well. Sorry, I keep forgetting that we can edit. So I’m speaking out loud. Let me see. no, I think I may have touched on it.

Brion

No, you’re doing great, by the way. This is an excellent job.

Shenae

Thank you, thank you. I tend to get nervous and then I lose my train of thought.

Brion

That’s normal.

Shenae

Yeah.

Brion

I do too.

Shenae

Yeah, okay.

Brion

I’m like, I gotta stop talking. I gotta. Get off this. I got to make my point and move on.

Shenae

Because I think everyone’s attention span nowadays is very shortened. So you’re like, let me hurry up. But it’s like also.

Brion

So much to share.

Shenae

There was something I seriously was going to touch on though, and I cannot remember.

Brion

I had something I’m going to add. I’ll add real quick. That discussion around healthcare and data and test results and stuff, the A1C you were talking about, that reminded me of a project I got involved with. We’re looking at Coumadin Clinic, and this is 20 some years ago. and the opportunities that we saw in this project to improve the care for patients taking these anticoagulation medication. We looked at the test results and we looked at lab differences and we found that the different labs had different test results, which then affects the medication, which then changes their risk of being too high or too low, which puts them at different types of risks for adverse events or complications. And it’s just like, Even an organization that has a lot of structure and there’s a lot of things in place to control the quality of the data and make sure the decisions were good. You go in there with a different perspective and different statistical mindset and you’re seeing these opportunities there and it’s just that’s an issue and that’s a risk and that’s a problem. And it was a little shocking, I guess, but also realized like how much opportunity there is in the healthcare space to bring in more data into decision making and historical looking at the patient results. Yes, that data point is off in isolation, but when you look at history of the last couple months, that’s not unusual data point for that patient. And each patient has a different profile and average and standard deviation. And so just bringing some of that into that space, that was my first experience looking into healthcare and it was pretty eye-opening that there’s a lot of opportunity there. And I don’t know if it’s really gotten that much better in terms of statistical tools and analysis in the patient setting and clinic settings. So I think there’s a lot of room for improvement.

Shenae

Yeah, I think so from my experience working in a large healthcare system, a lot of physicians, I will say that especially the newer age physicians, they are being trained to be researchers as well. But the reality is people tend to hate statistics. So I feel like it definitely like your experience, for instance, definitely shows the importance of collaboration. For instance, like when I was working with my physicians, like I’m the data expert, right? So they rely on me to guide the study, develop the statistical analysis plan, which is very similar to an evaluation plan, maybe at times a bit more complicated depending on the type of study that you’re doing. But it really points to the importance of collaboration, and having someone who has an expertise in data, right? Because we all have our areas of expertise, like for instance, with my physicians, they’re clinicians, right? So they kind of, they literally guide in a sense, the analysis plan as well, because they’re able to point to guide decisions like what patients should be excluded based on clinical factors or things like that. So it really takes a team effort. And it’s similar with nonprofits where their expertise is developing programs, right? And serving the communities, but their expertise is not in data analysis. And that’s where people like you and I were able to come in and really help them to come up with solid analysis plans, or in this case, evaluation plans. But yeah, it’s I will say that the newer physicians, they are more involved in research, which has been nice to see. I worked with a lot of residents during my time at the healthcare system and they’re eager to do studies. They’re involved in research. Some of them have even come in with publications already. But the data analysis piece is usually where you’ll find a few who actually know how to do data analysis. But again, it’s probably not at the level or comfort level that we have. Right. So I think that definitely points to the importance of the importance of collaboration.

Brion

Yeah. And when I teach classes and I ask people, have they ever had a statistics class and. I would, I don’t have a lot of hard data on this, but I would say 75 to 85% of them say, I hated that class. And my goal is I’m going to hopefully convert you over at the end of this training so that you say, I do like this stuff. I like it a lot more than I did in school. So it’s a little bit of a challenge to me to try and win them over and say, okay, let’s use some of these impractical applications so that you see how it benefits and how it can be used. And let me explain it to you in a way that I think is maybe a different approach you got in school because it tends to be very technical and challenging way of doing it. So how do you introduce people in those concepts in a more practical way so that it is something that they say, oh, I understand this now. I see what we’re trying to do. And I think it’s a lot of it is once they’re into a work setting and then they can understand the data that they’re used to seeing and wondering about some questions and then there’s tools aligned up to it. I think it’s really that practicality that you don’t have in school, like in college, if you’re taking a class like that. And once you’re in the workforce and out there and doing real work, I think now they see the data and they start to connect the dots there. So I don’t think it’s necessarily something wrong with the way it’s taught. I have some ideas, but I think it’s the practical applications that they start to see now. Now there’s interest that increases there, but still try to make it easy to understand. I don’t want people to be scared off by it or feel like it’s overwhelming. My goal is to try to get people to say, I actually like this now. I understand how it’s applicable. So it’s a challenge, but usually I’m pretty successful with that.

Shenae

Yeah, no, I would definitely agree because when I had my first statistics course, I was like, oh my gosh. If you told me then that I would be in this career, I’d be like, oh, you’re hilarious because I hated it. And it was once I started doing my master’s and I took another course and similar to what you’re saying, I had the opportunity to apply statistics to research studies that I was collaborating on with professors. I was like, oh, it’s actually not bad. And I feel like there’s a sense of creativity behind statistics. You come up with a study plan, you have a research question, you see all the variables and you see all the variables and you’re like, okay, so what, what test would I apply to this? What would. the study look like? What would my research question be? What’s my outcome measure and what are my covariates and things like that where it’s just I think once you have the opportunity to apply it and apply it to something you actually genuinely care about, I think that’s the important piece, right? You then get excited because you’re like, oh, I do my coding and I run my analyses, I look at the results and I’m finally getting something I care about answered through data. I think once you’ve had that experience a couple times, it takes a couple times because trust me, I remember I used SAS for my PhD dissertation because it’s really good with handling large data. And I almost had a few moments where I was like, okay. Maybe I don’t like statistics, but then once I changed over to Stata, which is my preference and that’s the other thing, right? You don’t have to stick to one statistical analysis software, right? And I think that’s the thing is that there’s so many options now, and I just can only imagine with AI the possibilities. But there’s so many options that even if you’re not necessarily You don’t enjoy a certain statistical analysis software. You can say, okay, let me try SPSS. Let me try Stata. So I think you’re right or not. I think you’re definitely right in terms of, I think once you’ve had the time to the opportunity to apply it to something you actually care about and you’re in a work setting. I will say even for me when I had my first research scientist job, I learned a lot more, right? I had already learned how to like I had learned to apply my data analysis courses and I was on some research projects, but once I got into my first research scientist job where I was leading analyses for providers from various medical specialties, that’s where I truly learned or maybe sharpen, maybe that’s the right word to say, sharpen my data analysis skills because I had the opportunity to answer various research questions, right? That meant I needed to apply various types of statistical analyses. So once you have the opportunity to get on the job, it’s almost like additional training in a sense.

Brion

Let me pause for a moment to tell you about our sponsor. Creative Safety Supply is a great resource for free guides, infographics, and continuous improvement tools. I recommend starting with their 5S guide. It includes breakdowns of the five pillars, ways to begin implementing 5S, and even organization tips and color charts. From red tags to floor markings, it’s all there. Download it for free at creativesafetysupply.com/5S. You can think back to my schooling and I liked statistics and math and data. And so I went down that pathway and the first class I took was brutal. It was like proving theorems and stuff. And I was like, is this what this course is like I’m going into that this is boring and I’m confused and lost. And so yeah, if people had a bad experience with it, like That it may have just been the content and the way it was taught and the what details is going into. But then I was later a teaching assistant and it was a stats for general studies. I don’t remember who had to take that course, but it was for non people. It was for people who were not going to be statisticians, but they need to have some understanding of these principles. And I was going through that and teaching us. I’m like, this is a really great course because it’s teaching really practical uses of data and analysis. And so it’s not theoretical and it’s not proving out theorems and why this works. And that could have taken me out of that whole curriculum with that first course. Like you said and getting overwhelmed and this is not what I got into, but when I saw that and then I get into the workspace and you’re like, oh, okay, now this is really interesting. But if people have had a bad experience with statistics or data before maybe they just need to try another approach, get into a green belt class or something like that to refresh them. I think they might enjoy it, especially if they have some work experience now to reflect on.

Shenae

Or even hop on a research project and ask if you can shadow the lead analyst or something of that nature where you actually see it applied. Because I think once you see it applied, it definitely not for all. There’s always going to be a subset of the population who’s just listen, I don’t want to do it. And that’s why Map Data Studio is here. I think once you’ve had the chance to apply it and you realize that you can truly get valuable information from data, you will get to the point where you’re like, oh, wow, I actually do enjoy digging through data and having various research questions, right? You should always have a primary research question, but you can also have other projects. Sometimes you do a study and then or evaluation as an example and. you maybe get results that you’re not quite, you weren’t expecting, right? And that may lead to other questions. And that’s kind of the beauty, especially if you have a curious mind of research, evaluation, working with data, because we tend to go in sometimes with expectations and then the data says otherwise and we’re like, oh wow, wasn’t expecting that. Obviously you double check, you make sure that your analysis is correct and you were looking at the correct data and the data is correct, but sometimes truly it can uncover things that you didn’t expect as well and lead you to or guide you to a different path that would make things more efficient or improve outcomes in the case of evaluating a program. So yeah.

Brion

Okay, let’s see. Let’s go all those nonprofit leaders. So we talked about, I want to talk through either the I don’t know if you want to walk through groups, like how you would help an organization or have helped organizations. I know you walked through the map process, but do you have anything like that you want to walk through? Or we also talked about some challenges in the nonprofit sector. I think we did touch on fear of statistics, gathering data, maybe the gathering data in the marginalized communities. We can touch on that if we haven’t already. I don’t think we really got into that detail. I think we touched on data-driven decisions. So yeah, I don’t know on the like ideal clients part of it, how you want to.

Shenae

Yeah, I think we, yeah, we should definitely touch on that. The ideal clients and then maybe just the services that I offer. Yeah.

Brion

Okay.

Shenae

Yeah.

Brion

Okay. No.

Shenae

Okay.

Brion

All right. So the yeah, okay, I’ll try to kick it off here. So if an organization is looking for some assistance or help, how do you help them or work through that whole MAP process with them? Maybe you can share an example or the type of clients you think would be really helpful or needed, or the type of clients that you think you can best assist or help.

Shenae

Yeah, Map Data Studio is really focused on helping small to medium-sized mission-driven teams or nonprofits. So like what we talked about before, these are the nonprofits that often don’t have a data person on staff and they don’t need to, right? They can collaborate with, for instance, Map Data Studio, and we can help them with their evaluation plans. So that may look like clients who are applying or renewing their grants who may need help with developing their data evaluation plan. We kind of touched, we talked a little bit about that. I’ve done that in similar capacities within institutions. We’re also able to help clients who already have data and who may just need help with analyzing their data for impact reporting. Some of that obviously may involve ensuring that the data that they’re collecting is actually tied back to their mission, ensuring that the outcomes that you’re looking at are appropriate for based on the mission that you have, your missions promise, we can call it. And then also we help with building data collection tools that could include surveys, That could include if you’re more comfortable with using Excel, that could be ensuring that we help you with your Excel sheet to ensure that there’s consistency in the data collection. So data strategy as well, like who’s responsible for inputting data, who’s responsible for capturing your data points essentially. So we can also help with data strategy as well. But the goal is truly to make, the goal is to make data analysis access accessible to small to medium sized nonprofits. There was something else I wanted to touch on. Hold on. Oh my gosh. I wanted to touch on the mission and I just realized when I said that. Anyway, let me go to. Okay. Yeah.

Brion

Go back. I can rearrange sections too. So move things ahead or behind.

Shenae

Yeah. So, okay. I’ll I’ll just touch on the services as well. So yeah, so some of our services includes impact metrics and measurements so program evaluation survey design and data collection data strategy, as well as developing data systems and also of course, impact analysis and reporting. And the goal really is to ensure that by partnering with mission driven organizations, that they’re able to get access to a PhD level data analysis or data expert so that they can focus on their community programs.

Brion

And you’re when you’re helping them, you’re looking at the end and saying, how are we going to measure the impact of this? And we got to start early. And I think what I think is really powerful is you’re helping them think through what they’re gonna say in the grant proposal, probably to get better chance of funding. And then, when it’s done, they can better report how they did, which It creates a great cycle of more likely to get more funding in the future because they have proof that it works and their program is successful and they’re measuring the right things and getting more funders and donors to support it because, hey, this is working and we have results to show. And now we just need additional funds or support to get behind this or redirect funds to this effort. So I think it is such an important part. I don’t know if they all realize the, the value that it provides not only in getting the funds initially, but obtaining additional funds in the future or solving the problem so the funds aren’t needed in the future, which is ultimately the bigger goal. So those funds could be diverted to other problems and other disparities that are going on.

Shenae

Correct. And there’s actually, I made a note to myself to bring this up because I think it really points to the importance of that data is not only a reporting issue, but it can also present as an equity issue, right? The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation did a report and they actually found that I think it’s 60% of organizations who serve communities of color actually report that their impact was underfunded because they didn’t have an evaluation system in place. That speaks to the importance of having an evaluation system in place, right? And like you said, starting early, you have a grant coming up and you make sure that when you’re submitting that grant application, you have a solid evaluation plan and you go through. And I think that nothing that also improves your likelihood of getting the funds right. If you have a solid evaluation plan in place, the funder will be a bit more willing to give their funds and ensure that their funds is going to an organization that they feel is equipped to not only serve the community, but to ensure that their programs are working, right? Especially in this environment where funding is hard to get, more and more funders are wanting to see proof that your programs are working so that, as we said, when it comes time for renewal or to provide you with additional funding for other programs or other communities, They can trust that this is a team that I know will have an evaluation plan in place and they will not only determine if their programs are working, but based on the data, they will reorganize or reallocate as needed. And another thing when we’re thinking about equity is that having data, it’s really important to disaggregate data, right? If we are looking, if we’re trying to see who’s not, who’s not being reached versus who’s being reached, you will want to break down that data by demographics as an example. So whether that’s race or ethnicity zip codes insurance status, if that’s something we’re interested in. So it’s important to also break down the data to see who’s being reached, who’s not being reached so that we can also make decisions based on the, based on the data and what the the data is same when we break it down by different demographics. So that’s also important as well, is that when we’re looking at data in order to truly close the gap, right, we need to ensure that we’re disaggregating our data points as well.

Brion

Yeah, to first even measure the gap. And I think that was something that was really eye opening to me during the pandemic was doing a little more research and just seeing, and this happens in the work I do too, right? We see a problem, we try to measure how bad it is, and then you’re looking for the variation in outcomes and where do you have success in that whole process and where is it a struggle? And when you see it broken down by gender or race and that’s the outcomes are not the same. depending on where you live and all these other demographic information, that shouldn’t really be the case. Those should not be factors on whether someone gets treated successfully with a healthcare condition, that have access to food, to have access to healthcare, that should not matter, and yet it does. quite a bit. And so solving those problems, you say, why is it working well over here? And why is it not working well over here? Why is there such a disparity? But in that difference is the key thing we have to do to change and say, how do we replicate what’s going well or how do we fix the issues that are not going well? So that just able to disaggregate that data and separate it out into those groups and categories is an essential problem solving skill that, but you need that data and detail going into it so you can be able to study those, those patterns there. So yeah, I think that’s all part of the, the training people get when they go through and start to think through this so that you can find those opportunities inside of that pro overall problem. Is there success stories in there and there’s really bad situations happening? And what can we learn from each of those that helps us come up with an improvement plan?

Shenae

And I think especially because I The backbone of my career is focused on health equity, right? And that’s given my personal experiences as well. But when we really think about, for instance, the social determinants of health, right? Even something as simple as incorporating those data points into your program, right? So we can look at things like whether or not someone’s able to afford groceries, so food insecurity as a measure. And in the case of the example that I’ve been using, patients with or community members with diabetes, you may see that there’s a subset of patients or individuals who they don’t have controlled A1C. And you’re able to look at different factors within the social determinants of health. So food insecurity as an example. And if that patient is food insecure, then that may be something that you may need to address to eventually see an improvement in their controlled A1C, right? Are they able to actually afford healthy foods, transportation? Are they able, have they been missing appointments because they can’t get to him from the doctor? things like that is definitely where I believe someone like myself, for instance, who’s focused, who has a lot of experience in that area, we’re able to I’m able to look at the different factors pertaining to even the social determinants of health. And if it’s relevant to your outcome, say, Hey, have you thought about including this data point? So it’s not even just the outcomes, right? You know, I, I tend to talk a lot about the impact to measurement because that’s like the final goal is to be able to quantify your impact, but it goes deeper. Like there’s several other factors that you have to think about. We touched on demographics, in this case, social determinants of health. evidence-based instruments. That’s another thing too, right? You may want to incorporate some of that as well. I think that also points again to the importance of collaborating with a data expert because we know the nuances and what we may want to include based on your mission. So yeah.

Brion

And what are some challenges that the data poses? Cause it sounds great, right? We just need more information, more data, but That data has been used sometimes not for good purposes. And there’s been cases where the outcomes are not always trying to help people maybe. So there’s some resistance, especially in marginalized communities, to data and who’s collecting it. What’s this information going to be used for? And how do you help people overcome that? Or what are some things that can be done to support that if people are trying to do that and they’re running into these barriers for obvious reasons?

Shenae

Yeah, I think at the end of the day, it’s gaining the community’s trust. And that obviously takes time. It takes building relationships with the right people within communities. As an example, within the healthcare sector, especially for communities of color, religious leaders tend to be very much trusted, right? So there’s been a lot of work around faith-based programs. So integrating your programs with a religious leader or a faith-based organization so that you can garner trust, right? So that’s one way is identifying the leaders in the communities that individuals trust and just building a genuine relationship with community members. I think we forget how powerful relationship building can be. And as you’re able, obviously it takes time, but as you’re able to build relationships and build the trust of individuals in the community. And when they recognize that you’re doing great work, again, going back to data, if you had a program implemented and maybe there’s maybe you didn’t have the greatest response because people didn’t want to get involved because they didn’t trust you as maybe a new organization or whatever the reason may have been. If you’re able to quantify your impact and disseminate those results and community members are able to see the impact that you’ve made, that also helps with building trust, right? Because if you’re able to say, hey, we implemented this program and here’s what the program involved, maybe it was going to workshops, maybe it was having healthy nutrition courses. maybe a stipend for groceries or whatever that looked like, and you were able to say 75% of individuals in our program within 90 days had controlled A1C, then someone in the community, they’re going to see that and say, oh, I want to be involved in that if they have diabetes. So I think going back to data. That’s a way to build trust as well. But it is definitely a real it’s a real challenge when you’re trying to serve marginalized communities because like you said, it’s not always when we find these inequities, it’s not always addressed in the right way. And over time it builds distrust. But I definitely think just finding the right community members who they trust. building relationships and then also using your data to show the impact that you’ve made and making sure that community members are aware, right? So also making sure that you’re getting it in to the right audience so that they can see that you’re truly making a difference. I think that helps.

Brion

Okay. I think I want to wrap up here or is there anything else you wanted to cover?

Shenae

No, I think that’s it.

Brion

So I’ll just ask you to share how people can get hold of you and website and social media and stuff like that. And then I don’t know if there’s anything else you want to promote coming up any programs or you got the presentation coming up, but that’s probably not for. Only local people, but yeah, so anything else you want to share or promote?

Shenae

I do have a starter kit actually that I developed for.

Brion

That’d be great.

Shenae

I can send you that link too if you want to include it. It’s like an Excel file. Yeah.

Brion

Okay. Let me kick it over to you and you can talk about that and how to get ahold of you. Okay. That’s a really great discussion. I want to thank you again for joining. So how can someone get ahold of you, learn more about the impact measurements and how they can help improve their program and get the better success, capture some of these successes they’re having or understand what’s working and not working in their programs. So how can people reach you?

Shenae

Yeah, first of all, thank you so much, Brion. I really enjoyed the conversation and being able to talk with someone who’s a fellow statistics fan. We’re far and in between. So I really enjoyed discussing everything with you today. But yeah, so I can be reached via Map Data Studio’s website. So that’s mapdatastudio.com. And I will send all of this over to you, Brion, so that you can include it. And then you can follow us on Instagram as well, @mapdatastudio. You can also follow my personal page, which is @mmol, so Dr. Shanae Samuels. I’m also on LinkedIn as Shanae Samuels staple PhD MPH. And then you can shoot us an e-mail if you’d like at info@mapdatastudio.com. And also I do have a free starter kit that I will share that link with Brion as well. And it’s a free Excel tool. No e-mail is required to download it and it includes an output audit. So you put your a list of your current metrics and it will actually help you to identify which of your metrics are. are outputs versus outcomes. Remember we talked about the importance of having outcomes as well. And it is the goal of the free starter kit is to give you an overview of your current metrics, whether or not they’re funder ready and where you may need to put a bit more work into to get it funder ready, of course. And then obviously once you’ve taken the starter kit. You can book a discovery call via the website mapdatastudio.com if you feel like you want to dive deeper and see if we would be a good fit to work together.

Brion

Okay, great. Thanks for sharing your story and giving everyone a good insight into this topic. I think it’s really important. So yeah, it’s something we touch on a little bit, but not to this kind of level. Hopefully everyone sees the value of this kind of work. Again, thank you so much for your time and everyone reach out and learn a little bit more on how they can improve their organization and performance with the data they have or start collecting better data.

Shenae

Yes, thank you so much for having me. I enjoyed the conversation. Thank you.

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